1. As a group discuss one sonnet other than the two Shakespeare one we looked at and decide what the central conceit is and how it develops...
2. Why are Blakes' poems reproduced in the reader divided into poems of 'Innocence' and 'Experience'?
3. Can you find some colour plates of the poems to upload?
4. How do the images and text work together in the examples we are looking at?
5. How is Blake considered in the history of English literature, and why?
6. Can you discover more popular cultural references to Blake?
7. Analyse one poem by Blake according to the schema I introduce in class week 7-8.
8. What was the impact of Rousseau’s revolutionary idealism on
Blake?
9. How does Rousseau’s assertion of women’s equality read to a modern audience?
10. What really happened at Villa Diodatti??
tbc...
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For question 9, while i can't speak for everyone as a "modern audience" i will certainly try and give my view. "But for sex, a women is a man; she has the same organs, the same needs, the same faculties" (Rousseau, 1762 p156) When I started to read the article I thought this was a good start, to me this statement is essentially true and was a good start however as I read on my opinion changed. The following paragraphs gave me the impression that to put it bluntly he thought a womens place was "in the kitchen" statements like "it follows that women is specially made for man's delight" (Rousseau, 1762 p156). After reading the rest of the text It gives the impression that while women and men had different rolls they are never the less equally important.
ReplyDeletefor the first question, me hayden and shane decided ice and fire by Edmund Spenser would be a good choice.
ReplyDeleteThe main conceit of this poetry is Hot vs Cold as the poet keeps describing his passion or "fire" towards one woman that is so "cold" towards him and has no feelings of love whatsoever. that we can see in the first few lines of the sonnet:
"my love is like to ice and I to fire
how comes it then that this her cold so great"
then he talks about how the more feelings he developes for her, the colder she becomes and wonders why her cold feelings didnt make him any less passionate towards her:
"But harder grows the more I her entreat?
Or how comes it that my exceeding heat
Is not allayed by her heart-frozen cold"
This is obviously not the greatest love story, and the poet sure does sound lonely and desperate.. or atleast hes very open about how his feelings.
and then he talks about how usually fire melts ice but his fire and passion have only hardened "the ice" or her feelings towards him.... this line does make him sound a bit stubborn.. but not only is he stubborn, her coldness and rejections makes him fancy her more...
"And ice, which is congeal'd with senseless cold,
Should kindle fire by wonderful device?
I think Spenser mustve been lonely when he wrote this poem, what do you guys think?
Just for the benifit of everyone else the poem is on page 106 of the course book.
ReplyDeleteI think Adnan is on the money with the main conciet of this poem,eg fire is the mans love and ice is the womens hate or rejection of love.
I just wanted to point out the paradoxical nature of his love, the more the man loves this lady with his "hot desire" (Spencer, 1522-1599) the colder she becomes towards him "but harder grows the more I her entreat" (Spencer, 1522-1599).
The more the man loves this women the stronger her rejection of him is, to me it seems the only way the women cold love this man is if he didn't love her, this however would simply reverse there positions.
I think the poem uses fire and ice to demonstrate the incompatability between these two people.
Please tell me if im not making any sense!
hey guys,
ReplyDeleteyea there is a paradoxical nature to the man's love for this lady.
I think I agree with Hayden's point about how the woman might fall for the man if he should fall out of love for her. (I think this is your point?) Upon first reading, it seemed to me that the man is more attracted to her when she is indifferent or even cold to him.As if he only wants what he cant have. Maybe.
3. Can you find some colour plates of the poems to upload
ReplyDeleteBlake's The Shepherd
http://quotationsbook.com/assets/shared/img/769/Blake_shepherd.jpg
The Tyger
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~tlouie/Tigers/theTyger.jpg
The fire and ice conceit that Hayden pointed is absolutely right, but its not so much the incompatability between the the 2 people, its the incompatability between the emotions, as being alike doesnt always cause emotional/physical attraction, sad but true haha
ReplyDeleteI agree with the team about the concept and paradoxical nature of the sonnet.
ReplyDeleteSpencer used two in-compatible elements such as ‘Ice and Fire’ to highlight the conflicting emotions between a man’s desire to be with a woman who appears to have little or no interest in him. This conflict is best illustrated by lines 2-4 of the sonnet ‘How comes it then that this her cold so great is not dissolved through my so hot desire, But harder grows the more I her entreat?’ Spencer, 1522-1599)
Furthermore.....I think Spencer created wonderful imagery through the use of metaphoric comparisons; relating to the love(or lack of it) the two shows for each other. The man’s obsessive desire is the ‘fire’ and the woman, who does not share his passion is the ice ‘or how comes it that my exceeding heat is not allayed by her heart frozen cold’ (Spencer, 1522-1599, Line 5-6). Metaphorically the man is asking why his “burning” love for this woman isn’t “melting” her heart; why are his affections not attracting this woman, how come his feeling aren’t reciprocated by this elusive female.
Just adding to Haydens’ thoughts about the paradoxical nature of the poem, on lines 9-10 Spencer(1522-1599) wrote ‘What more miraculous thing may be told that fire, which all thing melts should harden ice’. These lines indicate how Spencer uses a paradox (which is a true statement that becomes a dramatic contradiction) to show how the man’s ‘fire’ cannot melt the woman’s ‘ice’, it seems to make it harder and colder which should be impossible. The man cannot make this woman feel the same, every attempt makes this woman distance herself even more.
It is interesting to see different view points..and I would like to discuss on the topic of "Ice and fire" by Emund Spenser same as what Adman has suggested alreay,
ReplyDeleteYes I agree with the fact that the poem consist the concept of Hot vs Cold as the poet describes the feeling of "Hotness" and "Coldness" in relation to the topic of love. The guy has a passionate feeling of love like a fire towards the girl who has no interest in him..
"my love is like to ice and I to fire
how comes it then that this her cold so great"
It's also been suggested that he talks about how the more feelings he developes for her, the colder she becomes and wonders why her cold feelings didnt make him any less passionate towards her:
"But harder grows the more I her entreat?
Or how comes it that my exceeding heat
Is not allayed by her heart-frozen cold"
This I think is such a very romantic poem, which shows a disagreement to what adman has stated,.due to the fact that the poet has an indepth and long lasting feeling of love towards this women with a dry heart..Today in society, men are so smart that they don't want to waste their time on such woman who has no interest in them. If I was a man, I would try to get rid of the feeling, towards the women who aint giving me a chance. I agree with the fact how adamn has stated that the poet is a bit stubborn, due to the fact that he never give up on the women no matter how cold she is...
I think this poem is a great poem, and I would like to say that this really shows the real man's love, although, the man would have felt so lonely and difficult at the time, shows his williness and true and serious state of mind towards this cold lady that he is going to fall in love forever. I think in our society we are living in today, the men should be like this...in this way the men can be trusted and loved by the women, I believe that at the end of the story, the poet will get her heart due to the women's realisation of the man's consistant care.
Furthermore.....I agree with what Shane has stated about the fact that Spencer created wonderful imagery through the use of metaphoric comparisons;
ReplyDeleteThe use of a word ‘fire’ to relate the meaning of how the deep and passionate the feeling is and the woman,"Ice" which indicates the coldness and dryness of her heart towards the men.
The poet has stated the fact that how the Fire of love doesn't melt the ice...which in reality, it sure melts the ice away....very ironic and unexpected.
I agree with Hayden that the initial interpretation of the passage(s)is that Rousseau is somewhat of a feminist and believed in gender equality (hence the citation by Hayden).
ReplyDeleteReading on; Rousseau’s masculinity starts to become predominant ‘If woman is made to please and to be in subjection to man, she ought to make herself pleasing in his eyes and not provoke him to anger’ (Rousseau, 1762, P.156). To a modern audience this may be construed as a woman’s existence being only to service a man i.e. in the bedroom. Her aim in life should be to make him happy and not cause him any stress or anger, basically not argue with a man, keep her mouth shut and agree with everything a man has to say.
Reading the rest of the excerpt, in-equality does starts to prevail ‘she knows that she is made for such a man, that she is worthy of him, that she can make him happy as he will make her’ (Rousseau, 1762, P.161). I believe that the overall conceit of this passage is that a woman (Sophy) is only happy if her significant other is happy. She is an educated woman and has been ‘taught the duties and rights of her own sex and of ours’ (Rousseau, 1762, P.161).To a modern audience this could be interpreted as; a woman’s education is that of how to care for men and children, that her role (her right possibly) is as a caregiver because a man isn’t capable of reciprocating; his life is outside of the home.
I was talking about question 9 by the way.
ReplyDeletequestion 6. Some popular cultural references to Blake that can be found on wikipedia.
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Blake_in_popular_culture
The lines "Some are born to sweet delight, Some are born to endless night" from Blake's poem Auguries of Innocence are quoted by Jim Morrison in the song End of the Night from The Door's debut album.
Unreleased and rare track in The Complete U2 set on iTunes titled "Beautiful Ghost," in which Bono recites 'Introduction to Songs of Experience' over a sombre instrumental
1988's "Bull Durham" includes a scene showing Kevin Costner and Susan Sarandon arguing over a line ("the road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom") from Blake's "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell."
10. What really happened at Villa Diodatti??
ReplyDeleteAs to what "really" happened at the Villa Diodatti i don't think anyone can be sure, a variety of depravities are rumored to have occurred, but it is known to be the the place where Lord Byron, Mary Shelley, Percy Shelley and John Polidori got together in the summer and came up with the ideas for (most famously) Frankenstein and the "Vampyre".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Villa_diodati_2008.07.27_rg_5.JPG
Question 3:
ReplyDeleteHere are the colour plates for the titles pages of ‘Songs of Innocence and of Experience’ and his ‘Visions’ and ‘London’ poem.
http://blakearchive.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/songscover.jpg
Songs of Innocence and of Experience – Title Page
http://www.tucoo.net/ART/UploadFiles_8529/200609/20069159331530.jpg
Songs of Innocence – Title Page
http://www.rochester.edu/college/eng/blake/inquiry/enhanced/illustrations/large/41a.jpg
Songs of Experience – Title Page
http://anthurium.miami.edu/volume_4/issue_1/images/V4I1-Lezra-Monsters-V1a.jpg
Visions Poem
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ESC4bygtp2M/R0wwJ9mhR3I/AAAAAAAACGI/XOfJ267VhcY/s400/Blake+London+Plate+36+from+Songs+of+Innocence+and+Experience%5B1%5D.JPG
London Poem
Question 4:
ReplyDeleteThe images tend to enhance the main message being conveyed in the poems. For example, ‘The Chimney Sweeper’ (from Songs of Innocence) is about a boy who has been sold as a slave and dreams of one day having freedom. The colours in the plate are very dark and dim, representing the charcoal colour of smoke and soot. These dark colours also symbolise unhappiness within the boy and intertwines with the words “coffins of black”, meaning death. With the tree to the right hand side of the plate weaving its way up to the top, in a way the resembles the movement of smoke leaving a chimney.
Another example is in ‘Infant Joy’. This poem is about a baby being born and the happiness surrounding this special occasion. Being a ‘joyful’ poem, the vibrant reds and blues represent the bright feelings based around child birth. The red can also represent the feeling of unconditional love for a child. The blossoming flower can signify the start of a new life, and the growth of a baby within the womb. The use to the flower can also show the connection between pregnancy and nature. The words in the poem ‘pretty joy’ and ‘sweet joy’ are connected to colours.
Question 5:
ReplyDeleteIn the history of English literature Blake is considered an influential figure, in both visual arts and poetry. His visual art led to him being called one of Britain’s greatest artists. His work is both contrastive and symbolic, showing his tremendously quirky imagination and views. “Blake is held in high regard by critics for his expressiveness and creativity, and for the philosophical and mystical undercurrents within his work” (Wikipedia). A 19th century scholar, William Rossetti, characterised Blake’s work as a “glorious luminary”.
Read more about Blake and his works at: http://www.blakearchive.org/blake/main.html
Question 6:
ReplyDeleteThere are many popular culture references to Blake. Many of his songs and poem have been adapted by popular musicians, such as U2 and Bob Dylan. In U2’s ‘The Joshua Tree’ album Bono recites ‘Introduction to Songs of Experience’, over an instrumental. Blake’s name is also mentioned in many songs, like ‘You Don’t Pull No Punches’ by Van Morrison. Current day artists are incorporating Blake’s work. The Verve, have written a couple of songs which echo Blake’s poetry. Blur has also used Blake’s ‘A Poison Tree’ in their song ‘Girls and Boys’. Blake’s poems have been frequently used in many classical songs. Composers likes Ralph Vaughan Williams and Benjamin Britten, have written many hymns around his work. William Bolcom recorded the entire collection of the ‘Songs of Innocence and of Experience’, in 1984.
Also many of Blake’s paintings have influenced graphic novels and fantasy art. Blake’s radical ideas about alternative futures were largely imitated in 1900’s books. C. S. Lewis used the theme of Blake’s ‘The Marriage of Heaven and Hell’ in his novel ‘The Great Divorce’. In the book, Lewis describes Blake as a “genius”. The painting ‘The Great Red Dragon and the Woman Clothed in Sun’, was used in Thomas Harris’s 1981 novel and later film, ‘Red Dragon”, with the killer having an obsession with the painting. Also Blake himself and his wife Kate are main characters in Ray Nelson’s novel ‘Blake’s Progress’. Also Ed Bemand’s 2006 novel ‘Beheld’ refers to poems, ‘The Fly’ and ‘The Tyger’. Famous comic book writers Grant Morrison, R. Crumb, and J. M. Dematteis have all cited Blake as one of their major inspirations. Nancy Willard’s book of poetry, ‘A Visit to William Blake’s Inn: Poems for Innocent and Experienced Travellers’, won the Newbery Medal for excellence in American children’s literature in 1982. Blake has also been quoted in many Calvin and Hobbes comic strips.
Blake has also influenced television and films. In the 1969 episode ‘Full Frontal Nudity’, by Monty Python’s Flying Circus, ‘Jerusalem’ is sung. Also in the episode ‘Owl-Stretching Time’, they sing ‘Libya’. In the film ‘Mean Streets’, Robert De Niro and Harvey Keitel are in a scene which references ‘The Tyger’. Popular science fiction film ‘Blade Runner’ has a verse from ‘America a Prophecy’ appearing in it. Famous actor, Johnny Depp, plays a character called William Blake in the movie ‘Dead Man’. These are just some of the many films, novels and songs that Blake has influenced in one way or another.